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	<title>Comments on: Correlation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/</link>
	<description>Just another Oracle weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 17:10:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Naresh Bhandare</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34705</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Naresh Bhandare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;For anyone who reads a newspaper – not necessarily a tabloid, I think can see that statistics can be misrepresented to (attempt to) say whatever the author would like to portray.&quot;

reminds me of this one:

If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything. -Fred
Menger, chemistry professor (1937- )

PS: I think that copy-paste from me was a bit of quote mining on my part, but never mind :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For anyone who reads a newspaper – not necessarily a tabloid, I think can see that statistics can be misrepresented to (attempt to) say whatever the author would like to portray.&#8221;</p>
<p>reminds me of this one:</p>
<p>If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything. -Fred<br />
Menger, chemistry professor (1937- )</p>
<p>PS: I think that copy-paste from me was a bit of quote mining on my part, but never mind :)</p>
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		<title>By: xkcd fan</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[xkcd fan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obligatory xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/552/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obligatory xkcd comic: <a href="http://xkcd.com/552/" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/552/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alberto Dell'Era</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34656</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alberto Dell'Era]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; Note that step 3 is optional

But knowing how a drug works  makes for an infinitely more effective trial, especially when checking for negative side-effects ...

For example, knowing that paracetamol is metabolized by the liver, and that the real drug that works on the brain is a metabolite of it, calls for special investigations about possible liver damage. 

And since knowing how a drug works improves the effectiveness of the controlled trial so much - investigating about how it, or at least trying, is mandatory as well, in my opinion.

Anyway, out of metaphors - Oracle is a &quot;bit&quot; less complex than a human (or even an algae). You don&#039;t need a PhD and a full research team when conducting controlled trials ... just average analytic skills, sqlplus and a lot of sweating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; Note that step 3 is optional</p>
<p>But knowing how a drug works  makes for an infinitely more effective trial, especially when checking for negative side-effects &#8230;</p>
<p>For example, knowing that paracetamol is metabolized by the liver, and that the real drug that works on the brain is a metabolite of it, calls for special investigations about possible liver damage. </p>
<p>And since knowing how a drug works improves the effectiveness of the controlled trial so much &#8211; investigating about how it, or at least trying, is mandatory as well, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Anyway, out of metaphors &#8211; Oracle is a &#8220;bit&#8221; less complex than a human (or even an algae). You don&#8217;t need a PhD and a full research team when conducting controlled trials &#8230; just average analytic skills, sqlplus and a lot of sweating.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Lewis</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; And that is to confirm the correlation

Not really the right way of thinking about it. The purpose of the trials is to eliminate errors and ensure that the step from &quot;simple correlation&quot; to &quot;probable cause&quot; is justified. (And to check for threatening side-effects of course - 

Your use of the phrase &quot;(no causation)&quot; is also not entirely appropriate - it is reasonable to recognise causation without understanding (or having a complete understanding of) mechanism. In many cases understanding of mechanism comes later - and results in refinement of treatment or predications of side effects that need to be addressed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; And that is to confirm the correlation</p>
<p>Not really the right way of thinking about it. The purpose of the trials is to eliminate errors and ensure that the step from &#8220;simple correlation&#8221; to &#8220;probable cause&#8221; is justified. (And to check for threatening side-effects of course &#8211; </p>
<p>Your use of the phrase &#8220;(no causation)&#8221; is also not entirely appropriate &#8211; it is reasonable to recognise causation without understanding (or having a complete understanding of) mechanism. In many cases understanding of mechanism comes later &#8211; and results in refinement of treatment or predications of side effects that need to be addressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Wesley</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34643</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Wesley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amusingly when attempting to find Tom Kyte&#039;s excellent brief &quot;In search of the truth. Or Correlation is not Causation&quot; to link on this entry (my old link no longer works since the upgrade of AskTom), it turns out it forms part of an interesting debate between yourself, John, and Tom v Don &amp; Mike Ault - of course you would know that!

It makes for a good read on this notion in regard to the Oracle DB and bulk binds.
http://www.oracle.com.cn/archiver/?tid-56543.html

For those regularly reading information by people such as Ben Goldacre, Stephen J. Gould; and hence potentially Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers &amp; Phil Plait - I&#039;m sure you&#039;re all familiar with the dangers of data mining (and quote mining) and have seen plenty of non-Oracle related examples. 

For anyone who reads a newspaper - not necessarily a tabloid, I think can see that statistics can be misrepresented to (attempt to) say whatever the author would like to portray.

My 5 cents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amusingly when attempting to find Tom Kyte&#8217;s excellent brief &#8220;In search of the truth. Or Correlation is not Causation&#8221; to link on this entry (my old link no longer works since the upgrade of AskTom), it turns out it forms part of an interesting debate between yourself, John, and Tom v Don &amp; Mike Ault &#8211; of course you would know that!</p>
<p>It makes for a good read on this notion in regard to the Oracle DB and bulk binds.<br />
<a href="http://www.oracle.com.cn/archiver/?tid-56543.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.oracle.com.cn/archiver/?tid-56543.html</a></p>
<p>For those regularly reading information by people such as Ben Goldacre, Stephen J. Gould; and hence potentially Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers &amp; Phil Plait &#8211; I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re all familiar with the dangers of data mining (and quote mining) and have seen plenty of non-Oracle related examples. </p>
<p>For anyone who reads a newspaper &#8211; not necessarily a tabloid, I think can see that statistics can be misrepresented to (attempt to) say whatever the author would like to portray.</p>
<p>My 5 cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald K. Burleson</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald K. Burleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Prod,

&gt;&gt; Surely many of them will be different after I change a parameter or a query.

And yes, they do!

It&#039;a an iterative process, start with low hanging fruit, apply, rinse and repeat . . .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Prod,</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Surely many of them will be different after I change a parameter or a query.</p>
<p>And yes, they do!</p>
<p>It&#8217;a an iterative process, start with low hanging fruit, apply, rinse and repeat . . .</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Donald K. Burleson</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald K. Burleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt; It seems to be a nicotine replacement – nicotine attaches to specific brain receptors and acts as an inhibitor, and Xyban does exactly the same 

According to my doctor (I took this stuff to quit smoking), that&#039;s only the theory.  

There is no proof, and they still have no idea about how it works (no causation).

&gt;&gt; Drug company verified findings in a controlled trial

And that is to confirm the correlation.  As you correctly noted, that&#039;s all that medical science requires.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; It seems to be a nicotine replacement – nicotine attaches to specific brain receptors and acts as an inhibitor, and Xyban does exactly the same </p>
<p>According to my doctor (I took this stuff to quit smoking), that&#8217;s only the theory.  </p>
<p>There is no proof, and they still have no idea about how it works (no causation).</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Drug company verified findings in a controlled trial</p>
<p>And that is to confirm the correlation.  As you correctly noted, that&#8217;s all that medical science requires.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Lewis</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34640</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It may have been Ben Goldacre ( http://www.badscience.net ) who once pointed out that one of the UK tabloids was clearly intent on dividing everything into one of two classes:  things that caused cancer and things that cured cancer. His book is a very interesting, and sometimes appalling, read.

It is extraordinary how even the more respectable papers and news programs will produce headlines and soundbites that are clearly idiotic cherry-picking, compression, and hyping of cautiously stated results from careful investigations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may have been Ben Goldacre ( <a href="http://www.badscience.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.badscience.net</a> ) who once pointed out that one of the UK tabloids was clearly intent on dividing everything into one of two classes:  things that caused cancer and things that cured cancer. His book is a very interesting, and sometimes appalling, read.</p>
<p>It is extraordinary how even the more respectable papers and news programs will produce headlines and soundbites that are clearly idiotic cherry-picking, compression, and hyping of cautiously stated results from careful investigations.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Lewis</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34639</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34639</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The history is also interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellbutrin#History . 

Notice that the drug was first approved by the FDA in December 1985, withdrawn in 1986, and re-introduced in 1989; but it wasn&#039;t until 1997 - more than 11 years after the first release, and 8 years after the re-release - that it was approved as an aid to quit smoking and sold as Zyban.

There&#039;s probably a few years of testing in between - and it&#039;s quite likely that most of that testing would be looking for harmful side-effects.

Then - in 2006 - the drug was also approved for as a treatment for SAD (seasonal affective disorder).

It would be interesting to know how much of the time lag went into:
&lt;ul&gt;
a) initial observation of the correlation
b) testing for causality
c) testing for side effects
d) research into why it works.
&lt;/ul&gt;
(Obviously this isn&#039;t intended to suggest non-overlapping time-intervals).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The history is also interesting: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellbutrin#History" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellbutrin#History</a> . </p>
<p>Notice that the drug was first approved by the FDA in December 1985, withdrawn in 1986, and re-introduced in 1989; but it wasn&#8217;t until 1997 &#8211; more than 11 years after the first release, and 8 years after the re-release &#8211; that it was approved as an aid to quit smoking and sold as Zyban.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s probably a few years of testing in between &#8211; and it&#8217;s quite likely that most of that testing would be looking for harmful side-effects.</p>
<p>Then &#8211; in 2006 &#8211; the drug was also approved for as a treatment for SAD (seasonal affective disorder).</p>
<p>It would be interesting to know how much of the time lag went into:</p>
<ul>
a) initial observation of the correlation<br />
b) testing for causality<br />
c) testing for side effects<br />
d) research into why it works.
</ul>
<p>(Obviously this isn&#8217;t intended to suggest non-overlapping time-intervals).</p>
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		<title>By: prodlife</title>
		<link>http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/correlation/#comment-34638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[prodlife]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/?p=2378#comment-34638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, Wikipedia has a pretty convincing explanation of why it works. It seems to be a nicotine replacement - nicotine attaches to specific brain receptors and acts as an inhibitor, and Xyban does exactly the same - therefore people who take Xyban no longer need nicotine.

Thats pretty neat.

The research probably went like this:
1) Findings were reported from doctors and patients about this great side-effect of Wellbutrin.
2) Drug company verified findings in a controlled trial.
3) Researches found the reason it works.

Note that step 3 is optional, but step 2 is mandatory for turning an interesting idea into a medicine. 
Controlled experiments is what turns a correlation into a cause by eliminating other possible explanations such as chance, the fact that non-depressed people find it easier to quit smoking, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Wikipedia has a pretty convincing explanation of why it works. It seems to be a nicotine replacement &#8211; nicotine attaches to specific brain receptors and acts as an inhibitor, and Xyban does exactly the same &#8211; therefore people who take Xyban no longer need nicotine.</p>
<p>Thats pretty neat.</p>
<p>The research probably went like this:<br />
1) Findings were reported from doctors and patients about this great side-effect of Wellbutrin.<br />
2) Drug company verified findings in a controlled trial.<br />
3) Researches found the reason it works.</p>
<p>Note that step 3 is optional, but step 2 is mandatory for turning an interesting idea into a medicine.<br />
Controlled experiments is what turns a correlation into a cause by eliminating other possible explanations such as chance, the fact that non-depressed people find it easier to quit smoking, etc.</p>
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